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Your Cobra IRS  Suspension Specialists!!!!

Originally Posted by Jack Hidley of Maximum Motorsports:

The comparison listed above from the FTBR website contains quite bit of incorrect information about MM products.

The actual price for the MM IRS upper and lower Delrin control arm bushings is $498.68. This includes the tools to install the bushings which are an essential requirement to get the job done.

IRS Rear Grip Package - The Basics [MMRG-20] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

The price for the FTBR IRS upper and lower Delrin control arm bushings is $410. This does not include the price of the required tools to install the bushings. This costs an additional $70. This brings the total cost to $480. A 3.9% difference, $18.68.

The comparison of the differential mounts is invalid. The quoted kit from MM (MMIRSB-40) is not a bushing replacement, but a complete mount replacement made of aluminum. This is a very high strength design that will not break at any power level. The gear cover housing will break first. All of the components in the kit are aluminum and will therefore conduct more gear noise into the IRS subframe.

IRS differential mounts, aluminum, pinion angle adjustable [MMIRSB-40.1] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

The more suitable kit to compare the FTBR differential bushing kit to would be the MMIRSB-45 ($50.58). This is a polyurethane bushing replacement kit with installations tools. It is $104.42 cheaper than the FTBR equivalent.

IRS differential mounts, urethane, complete kit [MMIRSB-45] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

With regards to the MMIRSTR-1 tie rod kit. This kit does not include higher strength inner tie rod tubes as most customer do not need these. The higher strength inner tie rod tubes are primarily needed by drag racers and cars involved in wheel to wheel racing. Slight wheel to wheel contact will bend the OEM inner tie rods. For most customers using their car for street use, they aren't needed. The customer is better off spending that money somewhere else on the car. That is why we sell two different tie rod replacement kits.

On the subject of the inner tie rod tubes themselves, we use aluminum for a good reason. The IRS uprights are no longer serviced by Ford. In an accident or collision, you need something in the system to be a fuse so the steering arm or inner subframe mounts are not damaged. That is the job of the inner tie rod tube.

On the subject of the studs and spacers included in the tie rod kit itself. We have designed and manufactured custom parts for both of these applications. The studs are made of the correct steel alloy, with proper hardening, stress relieving and thread rolling. They are expensive to manufacture. The spacers are made of high strength steel alloy to allow the nuts to be torqued to a high enough level to give the stud the proper amount of stretch. Without the proper amount of stretch in the stud, the nuts can come loose when the stud is subjected to radial loads from cornering. Once the nut comes loose, the steering arm can fail very quickly or the outer tie rod can fall off. These are parts where cutting any corners in the design or manufacturing is unacceptable as they allow the driver to control or not control the direction of the vehicle.

We've tested plenty of competitors bumpsteer studs and spacers that just mushroomed when torqued to the proper amount of stretch.

On the subject of the IRS subframe to chassis mounting bolts. Why would you want to install the wrong bolts in the car, even if they were a total of $5.97 cheaper? Ford has almost completely purged the car of English fasteners, so you can work on the car with one set of tools. I don't want to use two sets of tools. For a total cost difference of $5.97 you get real OEM Ford bolts and nuts from MM with the proper flanged heads, shank diameter and much better corrosion resistance than a generic zinc plated grade 8 bolt.

On the subject of the polyurethane subframe bushings. We use the appropriate bushing material for the appropriate application. In the case of the upper control arms as an example, you must use a very stiff material as the bushings are very close to each other. The moment (torque) applied to the bushing pair has a lot of leverage on them, so they must be made of a stiff material to resist deflection.

On the other hand, the subframe bushings are very far apart, so much less bushing stiffness is needed to keep deflection to a designed level. The custom polyurethane we use is several times stiffer than the OEM rubber bushings. This limits deflection to an acceptable level.

What about using an incompressible (very stiff) bushing material in the IRS subframe mounting locations? There are at least two major problems with this.

1) NVH. The subframe bushings are the last series element between the road and the body of the car. The amount of NVH that they transmit to the body is a function of their stiffness. If you make them out of aluminum, Delrin, etc they are going to conduct much more NVH into the body. The correct durometer polyurethane in this case gives acceptablely low NVH and low deflection for good handling. There is no free lunch here.

2) Installation. The IRS subframe is a large weldment. The exact location of the four mounting tubes is not that well controlled. Installing the first two bushings and getting the bolts to go through the holes in the chassis is not that difficult. To get the second pair of bolts into the chassis holes can be a challenge. When you have an incompressible bushing in the subframe, this job can very very difficult. You may need to use a ratchet strap to bent the subframe into position. This is not fun when you are trying to hold up 150lbs+ of IRS stuff. If the subframe bushings allow some deflection, this job becomes much easier. This is why Ford installed M12 bolts at one end of the subframe from the factory. It added enough slop to make the installation easier.

The $332 cost savings quoted is pure fiction. It is made not using the actual MM component prices. It is made comparing oranges to apples in terms of products. When one accurately compares the prices of the various IRS kits, in some cases the MM prices are lower, in some the FTBR prices are lower, but this is primarily a function of how the products are grouped. In most cases it is not possible to do an apples to apples comparison.

It will be interesting to see how long this post is here before it gets deleted. The last two times, it was deleted within 24 hours.

Bruce's reply to the above post:

Greetings Jack, you will be pleasantly surprised your thread survived 90 days!!!

I can't say I'm sure what other threads you may have started, but I can honestly tell you I've not seen more than a couple of your threads on SVTP. I can also say that I've NEVER personally deleted (or moved) a single post you've made on this site or asked to have one moved or deleted by a mod or admin. If that's any comfort to you.

To anyone reading this thread, I suggest you mix yourself a tall cool one because you're going to need it. This baby is taking up some SVTP bandwidth tonight!

I'm going to have to embed Jack's post inside of mine otherwise you'd need a road map to follow along. Jack's post from above is in black and my replies to his post are in red.


Well Jack, I'm not sure if your boss put you up to this or what, but from your previous posts I've read on the internet, you had given me the impression you were a lot sharper guy than you have shown in this post. I've changed my mind about you since reading this, I'm sorry.

See my responses in red.



MM tech support comparing the MM IRS kit to the FTBR kit:


The comparison listed above from the FTBR website contains quite bit of incorrect information about MM products. Well maybe in the eyes of MM but let's take a look at the facts, ok Jack.

The actual price for the MM IRS upper and lower Delrin control arm bushings is $498.68. This includes the tools to install the bushings which are an essential requirement to get the job done.

Some people, particularly these days, have more time than money on their hands and they like to save a few bucks when they can. They are drilling and sawing the bushings out themselves without using removal tools. We give the customers the option, MM DOES NOT!!


IRS Rear Grip Package - The Basics [MMRG-20] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

The price for the FTBR IRS upper and lower Delrin control arm bushings is $410. This does not include the price of the required tools to install the bushings. Our kit requires NO bushing installation tools. This costs an additional $70. This brings the total cost to $480. A 3.9% difference, $18.68.

There is a $60 refund on the FTBR OEM bushing removal tools when they are returned to us. MM offers NO REFUND on returned tools.

The comparison of the differential mounts is invalid. The quoted kit from MM (MMIRSB-40) is not a bushing replacement, but a complete mount replacement made of aluminum. This is a very high strength design that will not break at any power level. The gear cover housing will break first. All of the components in the kit are aluminum and will therefore conduct more gear noise into the IRS subframe.

This rear mount from MM actually doubles the NVH transferred into the passenger compartment because BOTH the front and rear of the differential is mounted solidly by aluminum mounts. The FTBR rear mount reduces transferred NVH utilizing a Delrin isolated rear mount in the OEM bracket. In addition, the FTBR rear Delrin differential support works with the two major aftermarket replacement covers, Fore AND LPW. The solid MM rear mount DOES NOT WORK WITH EITHER ONE!!!

IRS differential mounts, aluminum, pinion angle adjustable [MMIRSB-40.1] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

The more suitable kit to compare the FTBR differential bushing kit to would be the MMIRSB-45 ($50.58). This is a polyurethane bushing replacement kit with installations tools. It is $104.42 cheaper than the FTBR equivalent. This is complete and total BS Jack and you know it! You want to compare the cost of your cheap poly bushings to our machined aluminum parts? How crazy is that!?!? You are comparing some cheap poly bushings (that probably cost you $2.00 each) to our machined aluminum!??! Jack, you can't possibly be serious?!?! Besides who in their right mind would put poly anything in an IRS? Nobody that I know!!!

IRS differential mounts, urethane, complete kit [MMIRSB-45] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

With regards to the MMIRSTR-1 tie rod kit. This kit does not include higher strength inner tie rod tubes as most customer do not need these. The higher strength inner tie rod tubes are primarily needed by drag racers and cars involved in wheel to wheel racing. Slight wheel to wheel contact will bend the OEM inner tie rods. For most customers using their car for street use, they aren't needed. The customer is better off spending that money somewhere else on the car. That is why we sell two different tie rod replacement kits.

Telling people with 600, 700 or 900 rear wheel horsepower that they can run that crappy OEM toe link with slicks or drag radials is truly laughable. It's almost borderline negligent as a performance based aftermarket supplier. I suggest you rethink the advice you're giving your customers.

On the subject of the inner tie rod tubes themselves, we use aluminum for a good reason. The IRS uprights are no longer serviced by Ford. In an accident or collision, you need something in the system to be a fuse so the steering arm or inner subframe mounts are not damaged. That is the job of the inner tie rod tube.

Ok, then how do they explain offering your MMIRSTR-2 that INCLUDES a stronger toe link??? That sure as hell is stronger than the OEM re-bar rod. Where's the fuse now?!!

On the subject of the studs and spacers included in the tie rod kit itself. We have designed and manufactured custom parts for both of these applications. The studs are made of the correct steel alloy,Ours as well! with proper hardening, stress relieving and thread rolling. You talk like thread rolling is some sort of secret NASA machining process?! WE THREAD ROLL ALL OF OUR PARTS!! They are expensive to manufacture. The spacers are made of high strength steel alloy to allow the nuts to be torqued to a high enough level to give the stud the proper amount of stretch. Without the proper amount of stretch in the stud, the nuts can come loose when the stud is subjected to radial loads from cornering. We use ny-loc nuts and I've never seen or heard of a properly installed toe link stud coming loose. Quite the contrary, it sometimes is VERY difficult to get them out of the knuckle! Once the nut comes loose, the steering arm can fail very quickly or the outer tie rod can fall off. These are parts where cutting any corners in the design or manufacturing is unacceptable as they allow the driver to control or not control the direction of the vehicle. No worries there. No failed FTBR toe links kits yet to date! I can assure you we CUT NO CORNERS as our customers will attest. We have happy customers that think our parts surpass the level of quality they were used to getting from "the big name companies". As a bonus we save them some of their hard earned cash in the process.

We've tested plenty of competitors bumpsteer studs and spacers that just mushroomed when torqued to the proper amount of stretch. Certainly there are people out in the marketplace that make sub-par parts that have no clue as to what they are doing. We use only the highest quality materials and machining processes for ALL of our parts. I have been involved in manufacturing since 1973 for equipment that costs in excess of seven figures. So making replacement aftermarket automotive parts is child's play compared to what I'm used to. This is most likely how we have risen as a respected supplier of automotive aftermarket replacement parts so fast and have garnered the attention of a company of the stature of Maximum Motorsports!

On the subject of the IRS subframe to chassis mounting bolts. Why would you want to install the wrong bolts in the car, even if they were a total of $5.97 cheaper? Excuse me Jack??? Where do you get off calling these parts WRONG? Oh and about the 'cheaper' part. I like to refer to them as being 'more affordable'. A VAST majority of our customers really appreciate us saving them some of their hard earned cash. Cheaper relates to a lower quality which I will prove as a misrepresentation on your part in just a minute. (see below regarding bolt facts) Ford has almost completely purged the car of English fasteners, so you can work on the car with one set of tools. This misinformation will also be debunked as well below. I don't want to use two sets of tools. No sweat there either Jack, facts coming up below. For a total cost difference of $5.97 you get real OEM Ford bolts and nuts from MM with the proper flanged heads, shank diameter and much better corrosion resistance than a generic zinc plated grade 8 bolt. A 9/16" Grade 8 bolt is .010" larger diameter than a 14mm bolt and it ALSO HAS A HIGHER TENSILE STRENGTH THAN THE 14MM BOLT MM OFFERS. (Google that if you don't want to take my word for it. The 9/16" bolt also requires a higher torque value at installation as well.) The smallest diameter on the shank of the MM supplied 14mm bolt is 12.66mm. The smallest diameter on the shank of our FTBR replacement 9/16" Grade 8 bolt is 14.1mm. Jack, I'm not sure if the reference to the "one set of tools" you made above is more pathetic or desperate? You're really reaching on this one for a $6 item Jack. A 21mm socket fits the head of our 9/16" bolt PERFECTLY. A 22mm socket fits the nut PERFECTLY as well. Better corrosion resistance?!?!! Jack, please, you can't be serious, can you? By the time a 9/16" Grade 8 bolt fails from corrosion it will be NUMEROUS DECADES! I'd be willing to bet it would be the last fastener standing in a pile of rusting debris on any New Edge Cobra, and that's a fact! As I state in the FAQ on our site, this kit is all about efficiency. Getting the job done at the most reasonable expense and that's where I chose to substitute this increase in performance bolt we supply as opposed to the overpriced and weaker bolt MM supplies. That also is an indisputable fact!

It also looks like we are going to be forced to remove the recommendation of MM FLSFC's on our web site. I can assure you I've recommended MMFLSFC's to hundreds of customers. Not any more. I think we will start manufacturing our own from now on. Of course, like all of our other products, they will exceed the quality and fit of our competitors and we will be able to offer them at a cost savings to our customers as a bonus. In this day and age, that is important to many people.

On the subject of the polyurethane subframe bushings. We use the appropriate bushing material for the appropriate application. In the case of the upper control arms as an example, you must use a very stiff material as the bushings are very close to each other. The moment (torque) applied to the bushing pair has a lot of leverage on them, so they must be made of a stiff material to resist deflection.

On the other hand, the subframe bushings are very far apart, so much less bushing stiffness is needed to keep deflection to a designed level. The custom polyurethane we use is several times stiffer than the OEM rubber bushings. This limits deflection to an acceptable level. I've had far too many bad experiences with poly. It's a cheap and weak material. We use UHMW for a reason. It holds the subframe infinitely more stable than some cheap $5 (your cost each) poly bushing. Sean Hyland makes SOLID ALUMINUM subframe bushings and Kenny Brown offered a solid mounted rear subframe called a 'hard mount'. This eliminated the cantilevered bracket and bolted the subframe directly to the chassis. If you don't mind your subframe moving around in your chassis then you could settle for some cheap poly bushings that MM offers. I don't want poly in my car thank you very much!

What about using an incompressible (very stiff) bushing material in the IRS subframe mounting locations? There are at least two major problems with this.

1) NVH. The subframe bushings are the last series element between the road and the body of the car. The amount of NVH that they transmit to the body is a function of their stiffness. Guess whose parts are held in the chassis the stiffest?!?!? You guessed it! The FTBR customers get the tightest mounted subframe which actually tightens up the chassis on an already pretty floppy platform. Think of it as a bolt in roll bar. The subframe is now helping to stiffen the chassis and prevent it from flexing and twisting. This is a bonus only FTBR customers receive. MM customers do not receive this additional chassis stiffening feature having their subframes mounted in cheap and wimpy poly bushings MM supplies to their customers. If you make them out of aluminum, Delrin, etc they are going to conduct much more NVH into the body. The correct durometer polyurethane in this case gives acceptablely low NVH and low deflection for good handling. There is no free lunch here.

2) Installation. The IRS subframe is a large weldment. The exact location of the four mounting tubes is not that well controlled. Installing the first two bushings and getting the bolts to go through the holes in the chassis is not that difficult. To get the second pair of bolts into the chassis holes can be a challenge. When you have an incompressible bushing in the subframe, this job can very very difficult. You may need to use a ratchet strap to bent the subframe into position. This is not fun when you are trying to hold up 150lbs+ of IRS stuff. If the subframe bushings allow some deflection, this job becomes much easier. This is why Ford installed M12 bolts at one end of the subframe from the factory. It added enough slop to make the installation easier. This is precisely why we also include shimming washers with our subframe bushing sets to take up any slack and excess space in the subframe mounts from excessive chassis manufacturing tolerances. I'll bet you were wondering what those shimming washers were for that were packed in with our subframe bushings, weren't you Jack?

The $332 cost savings quoted is pure fiction. It is made not using the actual MM component prices. It is made comparing oranges to apples in terms of products. When one accurately compares the prices of the various IRS kits, in some cases the MM prices are lower, in some the FTBR prices are lower, but this is primarily a function of how the products are grouped. In most cases it is not possible to do an apples to apples comparison. How about your subframe tool Jack?? The subframe removal tool is included in OUR $10 rental fee. ($70 tools, $60 refund on return) I guess your customers have to shell out some additional money for that one, huh?!?! We also INCLUDE a ten piece grease fitting kit that is NOT included in the MM kit. MM expects their bushings to survive with a little bit of assembly lube. Guess what folks, it doesn't happen in the real world. You're going to be going back in there every year or every couple of years to disassemble your complete articulating assembly and re-lubing. Doesn't that sound like fun??! NOT!! With the FTBR kit you receive a grease fitting kit which will give your car lifelong trouble free and silent operation of your control arms for years and years to come. Guess what else FTBR kit gives you that MM does not?!!? An industrial Hardcoat on the inner sleeves for the control arms. You simply cannot wear this stuff out!!! And you're getting that at a cost savings to boot. You're probably asking how we can do it!?!? Volume, volume, volume!!!

Want to know what else you're NOT getting with your FTBR bushing kit? You're NOT going to get upper control arm bushings that need to be replaced every year or two. We have seen countless cases of this with the MM UCA Delrin bushings. This is due to an inherent design defect in the MM UCA bushings. The lowers also have this inherent design defect but it is not magnified like it is on the MM UCA bushings because the uppers are much smaller. As a matter of fact, if you've recently installed MM Delrin control arm bushings in your car, you're going to want to check your rear wheels for play. Here are a couple of videos our customers have shot for us (thanks guys, we appreciate it!) showing the play in their Delrin MM upper control arm bushings:

(these videos may take a while to play/DL, please be patient)

video #1 showing tire wiggle from MM UCA bushing play

video #2 showing much MM UCA bushing play

video #3 showing close-up of MM UCA bushing

video #4 showing MM UCA inner sleeve play


So in closing I'd like to state that many future customers know what all of our current customers already know and that is who exactly manufactures the highest quality, best designed and manufactured IRS kits available in the marketplace today. There is a reason MM feels threatened by us otherwise they would never have bothered composing a post such as this. There is also a reason we have been so successful with our kit. We have customers coming on board on a daily basis praising the complete and total transformation they have seen in their IRS. It's high quality, it's affordable, it's durable and track tested. 

Video of Bruce track testing Full Tilt Boogie Racing Products:

AV8SS Race 2006 GingerMan Raceway

The market place will always decide who has the best products available and it looks like the tide has already turned to FTBR for IRS bushing kits based on this post from Jack at MM.

Sincerely,

Bruce (and Steve)
Full Tilt Boogie Racing